Posts by Jonathan Drake

35

If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...

by Simon in

matthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.

for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.

so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.

Jonathan Drake

@village

im not opposed to checking that out. But Neros actions are documented by more than biased Christian sources are they not?

52

USING CONTEXT to understand 'supernatural' Jesus

by TerryWalstrom in

to 27 b.c.e.. in the years of roman republic, no man was called a god (or even a king).

however, 200 years of peace under a ruler imperator, (emperor) gradually relaxed the fears of romans of having a dictator.

surely the gods had bestowed unusual approval!

Jonathan Drake

Yes his book is very good, I enjoyed the part about q but I was more interested in everything else.

I think I stated in your other thread that it would make sense for Peter to assume that preaching to all nations and tribes and tongues meant the Jews spread all over the empire. The Jews lived all over. I've always felt Peter likely believed this. However, while he was beckoned to go to Cornelius once he accepted he never questioned again, only his actions showed he needed to be corrected.

Your comment about the body of Christ being one and a house devided is true, and if these people were perfect and unaffected by their culture I would agree the gentile dilemma meant something other than it does. However as it stands, they were a people affected by thousands of years of culture that wouldn't be undone just because suddenly it's okay. It would take time to include Gentiles without anyone wondering about it.

As far as the Mark account, the writer assumed knowledge of birth, death and resurrection was known. One way this is shown is by how the Jews use the phrase," son of Mary" instead of son of Joseph when referring to Jesus. This was a derogatory reference inferring his illegitimacy. It's a direct call out to the virgin birth story.

as to the fighting regarding standardization of the church after constsntine, this is because of the warning given by the apostles. As i stated in the other thread, both Peter and Paul left instruction that after their death only oral and written teachings by them be used and remembered. Yet, after they died sects popped up teaching different things, and other books were created. The Christian movement was standardized already before the apostles died. Afterwards, people introduced their own ideas, in the same fashion as those mentioned by Paul in galations. This destandardized Christianity, resulting in varying beliefs which corrupted the original. Then the worship was further corrupted by the pope via my above posted information.

Summarizing, the real standard is the first century example. Any and all writings or teachings developed by people who weren't of the first century apostles is literally trash. Yet that trash came to define Christianity by the time of constsntine and was expounded on by the Catholic Church.

35

If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...

by Simon in

matthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.

for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.

so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.

Jonathan Drake

I disagree. Certain small groups thrive on persecution and it reinforces their beliefs and makes them more determined and convinced of their own "selected" status.

Im only lightly familiar with how the persecution complex works. So from what you've read it can actually affect the people who haven't joined? I.e., I'm a gentil worshipper of.. I dunno Ashtoreth. I see christians without any idols, I believe they are atheists. I see them being killed in coliseums and set alight on lamp posts to serve as street lights, and I know such treatment is wide spread. I would likely believe, because this is what Gentiles believed, that they were being punished by my god or the gods for their atheism or their blaspheme. Then one day one of them comes to me and talks about their Lord the Christ, tells me about things he did, and I, thinking as I do and knowing what I do about current events, join them because I am now convinced their persecution is evidence of their true status instead of gods wrath?

as to your last two statements in the above post if what I just asked can be verified then I would concede you are right. I know the last statement you make is very true, worship of this God has clearly evolved over a very long time and undergone a huge change in Christianity. But I still doubt the persecution complex can be set off in people unassociated with the group who have their own beliefs. Not impossible certainly, but I have trouble accepting it would happen.

35

If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...

by Simon in

matthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.

for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.

so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.

Jonathan Drake

many people also mistakenly confuse accounts of early Christianity with being proof of Jesus.

This is likely spot on. I confess this is my reasoning. People were alive to know if they were lying, why wouldn't they just out them as liars? ESPECIALLY the Pharisees. The Jewish religion hated Jesus back then, so why wouldn't they have accused them of lying instead of resorting to defamation of a person who they would have known wasn't real? Yet not only did they recognize he was real by accusing him of blaspheme and dying a cursed death, but never in history did they denounce him as a fairy tale. And they have every reason to do so.

35

If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...

by Simon in

matthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.

for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.

so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.

Jonathan Drake

This article lightly refers to the documentation of this explosion, and he discusses it further in his books:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Devotion_to_Jesus.shtml

And here is the difference between modern cult leaders and the early Christian movement. I submit that if Mormons, scientologists, or Jehovah's witnesses were being viciously murdered all over the known world, or severely persecuted continually and not just sporadically - nobody would join them. This was largely the situation in the first century. Members of a group already hated were actually managing to recruit people, people who knew they too would then be treated in kind. This is not a case of a people already in a group being persecuted and a persecution complex being set off. Rather, it's people who have no reason to subject themselves to a persecution already going on choosing to do so. Why?

35

If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...

by Simon in

matthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.

for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.

so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.

Jonathan Drake

@simon

i was going to refer to Josephus, yes - AND tacitus. Tacitus speaks very poorly of christians yet referes to Jesus. He is referred to here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

There re are a few others referred to I've never heard of, which I'm going to go check out.

That Jesus lived isn't really the part that required belief I don't think, at least I've never heard that. The likely hood is that he was a real person. The question is whether you believe what is said about him.

35

If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...

by Simon in

matthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.

for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.

so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.

Jonathan Drake

@village

regarding the thousands, paul was angry because of all the christians all over Jerusalem. The Pharisees stated Jerusalem was filled with these people. The explosion of Christ devotion is a documented event. It was everywhere within just over a decade. Then spread even farther by Paul after his conversion which happened very early.

no matter how charismatic the teacher, there is no way people would convert to something and stick to it when later they were killed by the hundreds and used as torches to light roadways. It's not possible. Something serious had them convinced to the point of being willing to not only face terrible deaths, but live knowing they may face it any day without saying, "you know what, screw this." I can't accept that.

52

USING CONTEXT to understand 'supernatural' Jesus

by TerryWalstrom in

to 27 b.c.e.. in the years of roman republic, no man was called a god (or even a king).

however, 200 years of peace under a ruler imperator, (emperor) gradually relaxed the fears of romans of having a dictator.

surely the gods had bestowed unusual approval!

Jonathan Drake

Yes, the virgin birth is much older than Christ. But that isn't because it was necessarily founded in paganism. The promise regarding the seed in genesis was well known and represented in every culture. These understood it to be a virgin birth, and that is why each culture features a promised seed delivering a messiah or savior through a virgin birth, or something very similar to the effect.

unfortunately, I don't remember where I read that.

52

USING CONTEXT to understand 'supernatural' Jesus

by TerryWalstrom in

to 27 b.c.e.. in the years of roman republic, no man was called a god (or even a king).

however, 200 years of peace under a ruler imperator, (emperor) gradually relaxed the fears of romans of having a dictator.

surely the gods had bestowed unusual approval!

Jonathan Drake

No they are not.

Peter never opposed the gentile mission, or any Gentiles. In galations the confrontation with Peter isn't abiut anything he said. Paul resisted him because he was shying away from the Gentiles out of fear for how Jewish Christians would react. But Peter stopped doing this, and his other actions show he welcomed Gentiles and supported Paul's mission.

The context of galations 5:12 shows that some had come preaching circumcision, as you say. Paul explained this was to undermine Christ and abolish the cross. That is why he made the expression about the slip of the knife, because these people were blaspheming Jesus sacrifice.

As to the eating meat. Paul was very clear. The idol temples had restaurants built onto them where you could get a meal. A Christian could go there and eat a meal, no big deal. But paul warned about a scenario where a Christian seeing this who used to worship in that temple would be "built up" to also eating. The difference was that one ate a meal, the other began to think reverently of the God they once worshipped - in doing so they sinned. The gentile religions did not believe the God was in the idol, they believed the idol represented the God who was elsewhere. Paul was thus making a distinction and explaining how christians should be mindful of each other's consciouses, lest we stumble a fellow into their former idolatrous practice.

35

If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed ...

by Simon in

matthew 17:20 - he said to them, because of your little faith.

for truly, i say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.. i get the 'message' - if you believe enough (in fact, even a tiny amount - a mustard seed being tiny) then nothing is impossible but really, what a ridiculous statement and idea for several reasons.. there are lots of people who believe things completely and sincerely even to the point of death.

so far i've not noticed any sudden movements of any mountain ranges.

Jonathan Drake

In the end they believe him. Also, Jesus blood brothers didn't believe him at all either in the gospels, but later they do believe.

ive spoken about this subject with several people and I always concede that there is no proof to believe what happens in the gospels. None of those things can be proven, only that Jesus did live and rome killed him- that's it. The rest must be taken on faith, and that can't be denied by anyone no matter how crazy indoctrinated into a denomination they are - there is NO PROOF.

Thus, what you believe is completely possible. And it's the reason why, for me, looking at verifiable history from the first century is far more useful. As an example, the people who joined the Christian movement by the thousands were doing so at the risk of their own lives. They would have known this because at first they were all Jews, and also since they all knew what happened to Stephen as recorded in Acts 7. Yet, even with this fear, even after its real life demonstration in Stephen - they still didn't renounce Christianity. What further fascinates me is how such a drastic cultural shift happened in only a few years at most - and again, in the face of possible death. Something very real, and very impressive was going on to cause such a drastic explosion of Jesus devotion.

thats how I feel about it personally anyway.